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1 hour ago, crunch said:

All the pressure on the Dems would come from their own base, to not do ANYTHING to help President Trump or his agenda.  

 

Since a test of your hypothesis has not yet been allowed--McConnell did shut down the bipartisan approach after all you may have noticed--you have only conjecture for your notion to go on at the moment. One might even say your reasoning is "so tribal" since it has zero data to base it on.

 

My guess  is that there is a middle ground somewhere on health. Especially since the stated "Trump agenda" is cheaper medical insurance than Obamacare for all with no exceptions you may remember.

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The pressure on the Dems will only come if and when the Republicans make an offer to work together.  The whole narrative changes at that moment.  And the pressure will come from both directions.  Until then the Dems are free to sit on the sidelines and snipe and throw spitbills while the GOP fights among themselves. 

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39 minutes ago, NewfoundlandFreeFrog said:

 

Nobody fooled you about trying a bipartisan approach to anything. It hasn't yet been allowed. Hastert rule and all.

So I can keep my doctor?  I can keep my plan?  My premiums will be lower?

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7 hours ago, NewfoundlandFreeFrog said:

 

True. The "conservative" position is to do no analysis at all and let the fantasists spin away in an information free environment. That's guaranteed to be more accurate than analysing.

 

Can't say that was always the conservative position, but is sure seems to be these days. I remember when the dems were the loonies.

Didn't Nancy Pelosi say "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.?"

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1 hour ago, Luke Chisolm said:

Didn't Nancy Pelosi say "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.?"

 

It's a good message board jab, but the truth is Obamacare had a fair amount of vetting. First It had a trial run in the form of Romneycare at the state level. Second there was a ton of debate and modeling for several years, resulting in buy in from key stakeholders like the medical, hospital and insurance industry leaders. Then there was several months of debate and committee meetings. Yeah it was complex and flawed. But health care is complex (and flawed).  The reason it was relatively unpopular wasn't because it was complex , it was because it was unipartisan and therefore easily vilified and undermined.  

 

The reality with health care is this: there is no perfect system. Anything the Republicans can force through will be flawed and easily vilified. Obamacare for sure has its blind spots; in particular it puts too much financial burden in the young and healthy. But the old system had some major issues (the chronically ill) and whatever Trumpcare might look like would have some inequities that could be taken advantage of politically. That's why we need a bipartisan solution so that it is removed from the tit for tat political stuff. 

 

Sorry for rambling

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8 minutes ago, NeFrog in the Kitchen Sink said:

 

It's a good message board jab, but the truth is Obamacare had a fair amount of vetting. First It had a trial run in the form of Romneycare at the state level. Second there was a ton of debate and modeling for several years, resulting in buy in from key stakeholders like the medical, hospital and insurance industry leaders. Then there was several months of debate and committee meetings. Yeah it was complex and flawed. But health care is complex (and flawed).  The reason it was relatively unpopular wasn't because it was complex , it was because it was unipartisan and therefore easily vilified and undermined.  

 

The reality with health care is this: there is no perfect system. Anything the Republicans can force through will be flawed and easily vilified. Obamacare for sure has its blind spots; in particular it puts too much financial burden in the young and healthy. But the old system had some major issues (the chronically ill) and whatever Trumpcare might look like would have some inequities that could be taken advantage of politically. That's why we need a bipartisan solution so that it is removed from the tit for tat political stuff. 

 

Sorry for rambling

I don't disagree, but to say the Republicans "do no analysis at all" is a stretching the limits of truthfulness. Not your words, I understand. 

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16 minutes ago, Luke Chisolm said:

I don't disagree, but to say the Republicans "do no analysis at all" is a stretching the limits of truthfulness. Not your words, I understand. 

 

No I think they have some good ideas to work from. I think Kasich and the CO governor have some good ideas. 

 

I thjnk the Reps could put a lot of pressure on the the Dems by embracing a bipartisan path forward. And it would put to rest the leftward lurch Bernie et al has eyes for. 

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48 minutes ago, NeFrog in the Kitchen Sink said:

 

It's a good message board jab, but the truth is Obamacare had a fair amount of vetting. First It had a trial run in the form of Romneycare at the state level. Second there was a ton of debate and modeling for several years, resulting in buy in from key stakeholders like the medical, hospital and insurance industry leaders. Then there was several months of debate and committee meetings. Yeah it was complex and flawed. But health care is complex (and flawed).  The reason it was relatively unpopular wasn't because it was complex , it was because it was unipartisan and therefore easily vilified and undermined.  

 

The reality with health care is this: there is no perfect system. Anything the Republicans can force through will be flawed and easily vilified. Obamacare for sure has its blind spots; in particular it puts too much financial burden in the young and healthy. But the old system had some major issues (the chronically ill) and whatever Trumpcare might look like would have some inequities that could be taken advantage of politically. That's why we need a bipartisan solution so that it is removed from the tit for tat political stuff. 

 

Sorry for rambling

Nope.  The reason it was (and IS in the individual market) unpopular is because it was based and sold on lies and breaking the laws of economics for the independent producing class of Americans.  I think most Americans are a bit uncomfortable getting free or discounted insurance on the backs of fellow taxpayers.  But, once they got it, and see the Obamacare alternative, they raise their hand when asked if it should stay. Head down, hands up.  

  

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1 hour ago, Luke Chisolm said:

I don't disagree, but to say the Republicans "do no analysis at all" is a stretching the limits of truthfulness. Not your words, I understand. 

 

In this case they are purposefully  doing no analysis at all. In fact, the whole point is to pass the bill without analysis before what it will accomplish can be considered expressly in order to reduce counterpressure.

 

In your defensiveness, you missed that by implication, I was saying this WAS in fact a typical dem problem in the past. And may again be in the future. In that regard, I do credit Bill for isolating much of that element in the dems some years ago. It was one of his better achievements. 

 

That said, I don't think your Pelosi example is really a good example. That was far more in the nature of a misspeak than an indication of purposefully going eyes wide shut in order to pass something before its effects can be even cursorily considered. In any case, that is no reason to go even farther along that same path, is it?  "The dems were stupid so that makes my even greater stupidity OK" is not really what I consider an example of the application of solid, sober, well thought out conservative principles. In my opinion at least. Others may disagree.

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5 hours ago, crunch said:

Yeah, Newf et al (!) never take political bombast or misspeak out of context.  

 

Angels among us.  

 

Trump's health care statements provided by CNNMoney above that he would get cheaper, better coverage for all were out of context bombast or mispeaking? I think not:

 

1. They were repeated at rallies literally many times daily for literally months. So they were certainly not mispeakings.

 

2. They could have been meaningless and/or misleading bombast to fool voters, I suppose. But again, repeated daily for months, and so most definitely not out of context. Rather, totally within context.

 

You simply cannot make the "political bombast or misspeak out of context" argument with the CNNMoney clip here (you can with many others from many other sources that do so on purpose). It's simply reporting what he directly said on countless occasions during the campaign. Everyone in the country heard it a million times. To ask people to deny what their lyin' ears heard and what lyin' memories remember is pointless in the extreme for normal people at least! Talk about "alternative facts", for Heavens sake!

 

As well,  then he called the House bill "mean" long after he was elected. So the out of context misspeak/bombast argument seems particularly weak there.

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Those weren't the statements I was referring to, but whatever.  

 

I do think Trumps plan had a better chance to lower premiums and increase choice.  That plan in no way resembles the current slew of Congressional desperation stew.

 

 

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Sacrifices and deeds of the past can earn undying respect for those actions.  

 

That does not preclude anyone from responding or making opposing statements on current actions.  

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