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DirtyThirdFrog

Chicago: Coldest 4 months on record

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This whole argument leaves me cold. Or hot, depending on your politics and which experts you find credible. What everyone should be able to agree on is that the climate is changing (as it always seems to) and it is likely (if unproven to a few folks) that mankind is somewhat responsible (how much is debatable). The political argument is what, if anything, we can do about it. Or even if we should. If you live in Wichita Falls, which is about to start recycling bathroom waste water because of the drought, you might feel that SOMETHING should be attempted, at least.

Let's start easy: Do you think you should pay to have other people's houses repeatedly rebuilt on Gulf coast properties? Or should the owners pay to have their properties be repeatedly rebuilt?

 

The science says the rate of rebuilding will increase over time over the present rate for which the subsidies are already in the many billions.

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Oregon allows for an alternative wastewater disposal system in it's sanitation code. I like it. You can redirect your laundry/bathroom greywater to your landscape. To be effective, you have to use products with natural ingredients so that you aren't putting more harmful chemicals into the ground, but that's easily done these days.

Our code also allows for the use of compostable toilets instead of septic systems. A new SS can cost $15k-$20K while a CT is about $2K for a really good model. They only have to be emptied a couple of times a year, less if you do your dirty work away from home.

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Oregon allows for an alternative wastewater disposal system in it's sanitation code. I like it. You can redirect your laundry/bathroom greywater to your landscape. To be effective, you have to use products with natural ingredients so that you aren't putting more harmful chemicals into the ground, but that's easily done these days.

Our code also allows for the use of compostable toilets instead of septic systems. A new SS can cost $15k-$20K while a CT is about $2K for a really good model. They only have to be emptied a couple of times a year, less if you do your dirty work away from home.

You're not coming over to MY house to use MY toilet. That's for sure! :o

 

Has anyone calculated out the methane effects of mass compostable toilets compared to conventional sewage/septic systems, I wonder?

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Has anyone calculated out the methane effects of mass compostable toilets compared to conventional sewage/septic systems, I wonder?

Darlin, only you would think of this. ;-)

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Has anyone calculated out the methane effects of mass compostable toilets compared to conventional sewage/septic systems, I wonder?

 

 

yes.

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If I still lived in Wichita Falls (I was born there, back in the dust bowl days) I'd think this was a crappy idea...

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http://www.freedomworks.org/content/13-worst-predictions-made-earth-day-1970?social=twitter_share

Here's a preview: So yes. These predictions by the "expert" smarty pants scientist are nothing new.

I like #6. Funny. The cover of nat geo this month was all about food too :)

ngm_may_2014_cvr-275x400.jpg

As Newf points out, Ehrlich was wrong in not accounting for technology. Technology has bailed our asses out environmentally before and we're going to need it to bail us out of this mess we're in. The thing people were most concerned about then, acid rain and ozone layer, were mitigated by technology and science. Not by denying we had a problem at all.

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As Newf points out, Ehrlich was wrong in not accounting for technology. Technology has bailed our asses out environmentally before and we're going to need it to bail us out of this mess we're in. The thing people were most concerned about then, acid rain and ozone layer, were mitigated by technology and science. Not by denying we had a problem at all.

Actually, if you go back and read the power company brochures re. acid rain mitigation and the Dupont brochures re. HFCs mitigation, you will recognize the work of the very same firms and in some cases the very same copy producers. Dealing with either spelled economic disaster. It didn't matter what we did, other countries would take advantage of our extra costs. Etc. Etc. Etc. Turns out both can be dealt with at some cost, but a lesser one than the harm they would cause and certainly not the destruction of the country. Hell, I'm old enough to remember hearing that doing anything to cut back on tobacco use would ruin the economy, though that argument went out not too long after the Surgeon-General's report. But the generation of the day actually felt these all were problems that had to be dealt with and did so even in the face of the interest groups spouting these very same lines.

 

This present fight most resembles tobacco as the damage is long term and when you come right down to it the odds of any individual contracting lung cancer really isn't all that higher when one smokes. Lindtzen makes this point repeatedly which in fact is true.  It is only when looking at societal costs across the whole population across time that the true negative effects on the population and the economy are seen. Acid rain and ozone holes have much more dramatic, easily seem effects.

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Ending slavery was to be the economic ruin of the south. Of course it kinda was, when combined with the effect of devastating war. Sometimes morality and economics do not align ...

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I used to respect George back when he'd appear on Firing Line and before he became a crotchety old man. The same effect often happens with crotchety old scientists. Even scientists as good as Pauling. Brains for some people just appear to freeze sometimes as they age. And for George, I'm sorry to say, that has happened. It's all a conspiracy, George? In every country? Across generations since the 19th century? That no one has ever outed? Come on George, that's not your former self.

 

Same with Charlie. He used to write some good stuff until something scared him back around the turn of the millennium. Don't know what it was but his fear of things he disagrees with is palpable in his writing and speaking now. More so in foreign policy, but it permeates everything. It has turned him rather meaner and shallower than his prior self.

 

His argument that Einstein's theories disproved the prior physics consensus and therefore somehow the climate science consensus is suspect is especially egregious reasoning--if I can dignify that statement with the terms "argument" and "reasoning". Einstein proved that for the most part normal physics is correct to about 9 decimal places and his equations reduce to normal physics rather than overturning it in normal space and time. It is only if you travel in really strange ways to really strange places or make really strange or really, really precise measurements that his theories kick in. If we start spinning the Earth at relativistic rates, all climate science will be out the window, true. But the planet will disintegrate as well, so it's not really a problem.

 

Climate scientists would in fact be very happy if someone could come up with a new, more accurate theory that would reduce to the present understanding under normal circumstances. It's just plain glib, even stupid, thinking from all angles and only a very shallow, even stupid, watcher would be taken in. But I guess that's what he's counting on.

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For those who think all this is something new, if you can read the print from this 1884 article, note near the end and realize carbonic acid is CO2...

 

Cold+and+heat+near+the+poles.png

 

If cannot read it, the relevant portion is:

 

"... Many ingenious hypotheses have been proposed to account for the warmer climate of earlier times, but are at best unsatisfactory; and it appears to me that the true solution of the problem may be found in the constitution of the early atmosphere, when considered in the light of Dr. Tyndall's beautiful researches on radiant heat. He has found that the presence of a few hundredths of carbonic acid gas in the atmosphere, while offering almost no obstacle to the passage of the solar rays, would suffice to prevent almost entirely the loss by radiation of obscure heat, so that the surface of the land beneath such an atmosphere would become like a vast orchid house, in which the conditions of climate necessary to a luxuriant vegetation would be extended even to the polar regions."

ALBERT K. VARLEY, F.R.S. Mount Gambier, June 12, 1884, Founding Member of the Climate Conspiracy

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We need to implement Portland's recycling plan.  They have it figured out.

recycle.png

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We need to implement Portland's recycling plan.  They have it figured out.

recycle.png

Funny.

PD comment in 5.....4......3......2......

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Funny.

PD comment in 5.....4......3......2......

This is obviously outdated. Eggshells are to be washed with reclaimed rain water, air dried, baked in the solar oven at low temperature, crushed by hand and fed to your backyard free range chicken flock for added calcium in their diet.
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Obviously, Newf .... we have stopped studying Newton and Kepler because Einstein rendered them irrelevant ...

And Varley was clearly just trying to intimidate poor defenseless industrialists and turn our economy into a communist dystopia ...

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This is obviously outdated. Eggshells are to be washed with reclaimed rain water, air dried, baked in the solar oven at low temperature, crushed by hand and fed to your backyard free range chicken flock for added calcium in their diet.

Probably the most healing act of my life was when my son was worried about his pet snail who'd gotten a tad crushed in an accident and was having trouble healing as his shell was really thin. I thought real hard using all my science knowledge, took a piece of limestone, scraped some limestone dust onto his lettuce with a knife and Presto! his shell thickened and he healed the break just fine with a nice join across the damage. He lived for another year or two until released back in the wild.

 

I felt like Dr. Kildaire and my son was impressed with me.

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Probably the most healing act of my life was when my son was worried about his pet snail who'd gotten a tad crushed in an accident and was having trouble healing as his shell was really thin. I thought real hard using all my science knowledge, took a piece of limestone, scraped some limestone dust onto his lettuce with a knife and Presto! his shell thickened and he healed the break just fine with a nice join across the damage. He lived for another year or two until released back in the wild.

 

I felt like Dr. Kildaire and my son was impressed with me.

Once we have the veterinarian doctors confirm that there is no medical explanation for this occurrence, we will be ready to proceed with beatification.  You are only one miracle away from Sainthood.  Stay on the lookout.  Miracles often occur without much fanfare.

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Once we have the veterinarian doctors confirm that there is no medical explanation for this occurrence, we will be ready to proceed with beatification.  You are only one miracle away from Sainthood.  Stay on the lookout.  Miracles often occur without much fanfare.

Oh dear...you think the veterinary board will come after me after all these years???

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It rained an inch or more at Scribe Manor today, so I don't to see any more arguments about climate change....

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I have no idea of the particulars. I do know his research specifically endorses warming as recently as months ago, so the implication that way is clearly wrong. He sounds more like a Lomborgian.

 

Anyway, I think this is more of a political fight than a science fight. In particular, the GWPF is a very political organization which actively promotes the dissemination of clear disinformation. A 10 second perusal of their site will show you that.

 

For my part, I would have little interest in being associated however loosely with an organization which actively promotes disinformation. Nor would I be all that interested in co-authoring a paper with someone who was.  This would include ultra green groups which also promote disinformation. It's hard enough to try to be objective without actively associating yourself with known nonobjective sources.

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